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Mark: Yeah, the language is quieted. That thing, right?

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So then if I can get myself — and this is what was great about writing. The hardest part of writing from me when I was in that mindset was just getting my fingers on the freaking keyboard. It was just getting him on there. And then get them moving. And then there was these moments when I got lost in the words, I would get lost in what I was writing and all of that other junk was gone. So in effect — and this is like the flip side of this kind of language and action thing is you can change the language by acting. Not always feeling it. Well I might be shutting up right now.

Or I might offer something, or I might extend myself. I actually have started to — very much, in a very real way — hold myself to doing what I said I would do given who I would say I am.

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Regardless of however those feelings go up and down. But that is the game, right? There are times when the automatic kicks in — like there were times when I was writing the book — the automatic kicks in.

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Not doing it. And so my actions….

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Mark: Let me ask a question. So you gotta deal with that issue. No more self-sabotage for me. What yours is really about. And so you get to do the work in the book. Get to understand like what… And ultimately I call them the three saboteurs. At a subconscious level. While at the same time trying to overcome consciously.

Mark: laughing oh come on. So some people might already…. I think people are not loved in the first eighteen to thirty-six months of their life when they have zero differentiation of self.

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No ego development whatsoever. And if the love is withheld or not there, then that becomes — back to your phenomenological point of view — that becomes the lived experience. Alan Watts would just throw that up. So now the mind evolves into a differentiated self with love being absent. It is not a conscious thought. Gary: I even talk in the book — you have no sense of coming to a conclusion like that. But you still do it. Which is not quite accurate. But really though, you might be predisposed to something. Which is the self-sabotage part. And the proving of which would now give you something to grind against to overcome that?

Like a kind of certainty in life. That your life now has a certain flavor. That your life now has a certain kinda taste to it. Gary: Looking for someone to fulfill on something that you subconsciously already decided. And then this urge to go on to the next one. So I wanted to give people something that was really simple. Really powerful. And in a way where the life can start to make sense.

But for it to actually make a difference for them, it has to go beyond… As they go beyond knowledge… Knowing why you do what you do is it enough. But with that awareness, like, I start to see the damage getting done.

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I mean some of what… Like for me cause and effect is real because of the whole idea of karma and I believe in karma which is like the ultimate cosmic cause-and-effect. And that is really yogic philosophy, right? Mark: The spiritual traditions are talking about essentially eradicating the negative tendencies in your life — which include emotional and mental patterns.



And finding pure presence, so that you can act from that point of pure presence which is love. And if you could act from pure presence, you are not separated from love at all. Regardless of what story you tell yourself. Whatever the situation is… Defined your childhood or whatever. Psychology is irrelevant at that point. Gary: All right. Mark: What fascinates me though — like where my whole paradigm has been coming up through Zen and the traditions of meditation — the meditative path — is that it takes a long time, through training and practice, to cultivate a mind that can be present in pure love.

Just by changing who you are. Or how you act. Mark: And to be fair, a lot of people who do that long meditative path are just greasing the groove of what got them there to begin with. I have no idea. Gary: This is a better version of the shit that was here before, but this will be shit by next Friday. Gary: Very good.



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So… And again, I take a very straight line through this. And I spoke to somebody. And I was whistling, right? I like a good whistle. I must have picked it up from or something.